From MMS to MMK experience?

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starlet
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From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by starlet » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:12 am

I only use MMS from the DECset suite, so I was wondering
how easy would it be to switch to the free MMK and stop
worrying about licensing and similar issues.

It's supposed to be 100% compatible.
Any experience doing the switch and what to look out for?
Are there any additional features?


goathunter
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Re: From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by goathunter » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:54 pm

I've used MMK exclusively since Matt Madison first released it.

MMK is not 100% compatible with all MMS features, but in most cases, your existing .MMS files should not need to be changed. It also provides quite a few additional features. The full documentation is part of the kit, but this is from the readme:
MMK is similar in functionality to Digital's DEC/Module Management System (MMS),
and understands a syntax in its description files which is a superset of
that which is understood by MMS. It also includes other features, such as:

* Support for creating inference rules that separate source and target
directories, the syntax for which was borrowed from NMAKE.

* Conditional execution support based on MMS, MMK's own syntax and
GNU make.

* Extensive builtin functions, as well as the ability to call user-written
macros.

* The ability to assign the output of a command (or command procedure)
to a symbol.
https://github.com/endlesssoftware/mmk

Added in 42 seconds:
I've also built a version that runs on OpenVMS X86_64, though I have not posted that anywhere yet.


sms
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Re: From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by sms » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:18 am

Code: Select all

> MMK is not 100% compatible with all MMS features, [...]

   True.  I've never seen an MMK version which could handle one of my
DESCRIP_MKDEPS.MMS description files (Info-ZIP Zip and UnZip, and many
other programs).  For example:

ITS $ mmk /id
%MMK-I-IDENT, this is the MadGoat Make Utility V4.1-1
-MMK-I-COPYRIGHT, Copyright (c) 2008, Matthew Madison.  See LICENSE.TXT in distr
ibution kit for license information.

ITS $ sho def
  ITS$DKA0:[UTILITY.SOURCE.ZIP.zip30]

ITS $ MMK /EXTEND /DESCRIP = [.VMS]DESCRIP_MKDEPS.MMS /SKIP
%MMK-F-PARSERR, error parsing description line .IF $(FINDSTRING Skip, /SKIP_INTE
RMEDIATES) .eq Skip
-MMK-I-ERRLOC, at line number 58 in file ITS$DKA0:[UTILITY.SOURCE.ZIP.ZIP30.VMS]
DESCRIP_MKDEPS.MMS;1
-LIB-F-SYNTAXERR, string syntax error detected by LIB$TPARSE

   That file has worked fine with MMS since at least as far back as
2008.  (I haven't tried any newer MMK versions, if such exist.)

> [...] but in most cases, your existing .MMS files should not need to
> be changed. [...]

   For description files which do not require /EXTENDED_SYNTAX, it has
usually (always?) worked for me.


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starlet
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Re: From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by starlet » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:22 am

goathunter wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:54 pm
I've used MMK exclusively since Matt Madison first released it.
MMK is not 100% compatible with all MMS features, but in most cases, your existing .MMS files should not need to be changed. It also provides quite a few additional features. The full documentation is part of the kit, but this is from the readme:
Thanks, I'm aware of the above; I was looking for some war stories around that. For example,
I download a package I want to play with, but it uses MMS. So, I just run it with MMK (since I no
longer use MMS) - what can happen? Moving away from proprietary tools is a great feeling,
but, if it requires extra work every time, it may not be worth it.

By the way, the excellent process.com FILESERV archive site still has this link, that goes nowhere useful,
in many places: http://www.madgoat.com. Same with: mail links like: madison@MadGoat.com

Added in 7 minutes 54 seconds:
sms wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:18 am

Code: Select all

> MMK is not 100% compatible with all MMS features, [...]

True.  I've never seen an MMK version which could handle one of my
DESCRIP_MKDEPS.MMS description files (Info-ZIP Zip and UnZip, and many
other programs). 

A good case in point. It would be nice if code authors made an effort to
be compatible with MMK primarily, since there is more control over its
evolution and future.

Thanks Hunter for the port to x86_64!


sms
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Re: From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by sms » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:52 am

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> A good case in point. It would be nice if code authors made an effort to
> be compatible with MMK primarily, since there is more control over its
> evolution and future.

   "A good case" of _what_?  So far as I know, MMS had /EXTENDED_SYNTAX
before MMK, so I used it (long ago) to do what I wanted done (generating
dependency files).  When MMK added /EXTENDED_SYNTAX, it was not
compatible.  I claim that it would be nice if a program like MMK, which
claims to be compatible with, and/or a superset of, MMS, actually were
compatible.  My main description files already include some MMK
accommodations to deal with architecture identification.  Given the long
and continuing (Hobbyist/Community) availability of MMS, and the fact
that most users don't need to redo the dependency-generation, I've never
felt any need to convert my working dependency-generation scheme to
accommodate MMK.


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starlet
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Re: From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by starlet » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:23 am

sms wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:52 am

Code: Select all

"A good case" of _what_?
Of the necessity to keep both MMS and MMK in my toolbox?


goathunter
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Re: From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by goathunter » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:14 pm

starlet wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:30 am
Thanks, I'm aware of the above; I was looking for some war stories around that. For example,
I download a package I want to play with, but it uses MMS. So, I just run it with MMK (since I no
longer use MMS) - what can happen? Moving away from proprietary tools is a great feeling,
but, if it requires extra work every time, it may not be worth it.
It all depends, of course, on the features used. I didn't even know about the /EXTENDED_SYNTAX stuff Steven mentioned, so I've obviously never used it and didn't know MMK didn't fully support that. (The /EXTENDED_SYNTAX support that is there was added by Tim Sneddon a few years ago. I think that was always considered a work-in-progress.)

All I can say is that I don't remember ever encountering a DESCRIP.MMS file that had to be modified much, if at all, for use with MMK. But Steven provides a good example that doesn't work.
starlet wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:30 am
By the way, the excellent process.com FILESERV archive site still has this link, that goes nowhere useful,
in many places: http://www.madgoat.com. Same with: mail links like: madison@MadGoat.com
Thanks. I've never made the time to try to correct all of the links and dead email addresses there.

I always intended to update MMK with the version that Tim Sneddon did (the version on GitHub), but Tim had more work he planned to do, but, last I knew, hasn't had time to release those changes.

I just edited the entry for MMK to remove Matt's email address and to point to GitHub instead of madgoat.com. Thanks.
Thanks Hunter for the port to x86_64!
If I don't release it sooner, I'll release it as soon as there are native compilers on x86_64! ;)

Hunter

Added in 2 hours 5 minutes 57 seconds:
I've updated the MMK kit in my FILESERV Archive to the current V5.1. The .ZIP file contains VMSINSTAL kits for MMK V5.1 for VAX, Alpha, and I64.

Hunter

Added in 3 minutes 36 seconds:
sms wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:18 am
[ITS $ mmk /id
%MMK-I-IDENT, this is the MadGoat Make Utility V4.1-1
-MMK-I-COPYRIGHT, Copyright (c) 2008, Matthew Madison. See LICENSE.TXT in distr
ibution kit for license information.
Have you tried MMK V5.1? Because it supports /EXTEND. I haven't tested your example, but FINDSTRING is supported by that version.

I just updated MMK in my Archive to MMK V5.1.

https://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freewar ... rv/mmk.zip

Hunter
Last edited by goathunter on Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.


cmkrnl
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Re: From MMS to MMK experience?

Post by cmkrnl » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:33 am

goathunter wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:24 am
I always intended to update MMK with the version that Tim Sneddon did (the version on GitHub), but Tim had more work he planned to do, but, last I knew, hasn't had time to release those changes.
Yes, V5.n has a number of bugs related to the /EXTENDED_SYNTAX. Unfortunately, the time to sit down and smash these all is not forthcoming. I'm always happy to take submissions of changes, but anything from me, sadly has to wait in the queue...

I really should at least try chip away at some of them.

Regards, Tim.

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